stay posted for GREAT insight from Tina- I just have to find it. But I know I thought it.
Hey guysI was just wondering what the significants of shadows is when conneted with Edna?
Of the three stages of feminism, which one do you think Edna has reached during these chapters?
To answer Maria's question from the inside circle, I think that Edna is challenging the system in almost everything she does. I think that she acts this way because the fact that she is being oppressed.
Dev--I think that shadows can be a symbol of Edna's life that stays with her no matter how much she tries to leave. She wants to be "freed" in a way from her husband and society's views of her responsibilities but it just overshadows her and follows her.
Hannah I think that she is in the stage of relizing she needs to change and is beginning to change, however, I don't think she has reached the stage where she is willing to promote her ideas
Devon-I've been tracing light and shadows as my dichotomy, and I found it very interesting. It's like whenever there is light shining on her (its usually always shining on Edna) she has some sort of realization or something, but anytime there is shadow it is because there is a man near her holding an umbrella over her head.
i agree with dev, she is begging to change, not promoting
What does Edna expect to find wandering the streets on Tuesday?
I don't know if it's just the side of me that read too many trashy novels, but does anyone else want to Edna to have an affair? I'm frustrated by the repression of conflict in this novel.
shauna...do you think anyone who is oppressed will eventually "challenge the system" because the snap and can't handle it anymore?
I thought the passage on pg 93 was interesting. It says, "The little glimpse of domestic harmony which had been offered her, gave her no regret, no longing. It was not a condition of life which fitted her...she was moved by a kind of comiseration for Madame Ratignolle-- a pity for the colorless existence which never uplifted its possessor beyond the region of blind contentment, in which no moment of anguish ever visited her soul, in which she would never have the taste of life's delirium". What do you think :life's delirium" is? Do you think Edna prefers pain to "blind contentment"?
shaunam- I agree with what you said. She is also challenging the system by not being happy go lucky and expressing her true emotions.
tina.im tracing shadows too!!!
I agree with Shaunam that she's challenging the system with every single thing she does. I think it's interesting that one of her main methods of releasing emotion is painting. Why does she choose to paint? Is this socially unacceptable in this time?
I also agree with Shauna when she thinks that Edna is challenging the system. Because she is being repressed she is acting out and trying to be "freed"
laura do you think that the shadows could act like chains always reminding Edan who she "belongs" to and how she can never really escape?
I agree with Laura about the shadows, i definitely think that is it showing how no matter how hard she tries her past is always going to stay with her and follow her. It almost haunts her too in a way that she can't get away from her past.
Ok maybe this wasn't the brilliant insight I was thinking of, but going through my annotations I found things:Mr. Pontellier- the way he likes to look at all the expensive little details in his house and especially with the soup and dinner incident.
laura f.i think people r oppresed there whole lives and never challenge, what im curious is what exactly made her snap
Mrs. KakosI kinda want her to as well. I think that when theres a huge conflict like that makes the novel a little more interesting.
Dev--I think that the shadows signify Edna's life and how somethings are just going to stay with her forever, no matter how she tries to shake them. Also I think it is symbolic that they use shadows to symbolize this, because it seems dark, and unwanted.
I agree with Mrs. Kakos, as horrible as that may be. I wonder in Edna will realise that having an affair is also another way of going agaist the norms of society. She seems to be branching towards defiance, so why not have an affair with someone?
Dev...yeah that definitely seems like it because you can never get rid of your shadow or escape from it and it seems for now that Edna can't escape from this oppression.
Well, Edna having an affair would be going against her husband. It is a form of rebellion against what is set in stone. So yes, Ms. Kakos, I also want Edna to have an affair. It would represent her being free from her inhibitions that the men have put in her.
I was just wondering why does Edna get so depressed sometimes? I mean she is discovering her individuality and "removing" herself from the shadow of her husband. I mean just seems to have "days when she was un happy, she did not know why, - when it did not seem worth while to be glad or sorry, to be alive or dead; when life appeared to her like a grotesque pandemonium and humanity like worms struggling blindly toward inevitable annihilation"(Chopin 78). Maybe it is just another mystery the male mind shall never solve. I’m not calling females stupid or anything, they probably already know the answer.
Ms. Kakos, I completely agree. I've honestly been thinking that since she met Robert. That poses a question. Should she follow her heart or follow what's "right" according to the society?
Tina is also seems that sometimes she chooses to be in the shadow like when under the tree or when near Robert
Tina --- I thought this same thing!
I know this sounds really bad, but I kind of do want Edna and Robert to "get together" because it sounds a lot more like love than what she has with Leonce. However, i don't want them to have an affair, I want Edna to just leave Leonce
jessie w. I think she chooses to paint because her husband doesn't like her to. She wants to rebel against him and their marriage. One way is to paint because he doesn't like it when she is painting and not doing her duties.
Laura,I also agree with you on your thoughts about her shadow. She is trying to be free from her husband. I believe that her shadow is a reflecting of her past and society's repression and views all together following her around.
I think: Mademoiselle Reisz is into art to just prove she can express herself. All of the women around her can't express themselves and don't even know who they are and just follow the limits and expectations of their husbands and society. She does art and expresses herself creatively to shoe the world who she is.
Kakos--Part of me just wants Edna to because it seems like she is really wanting to go against her husband and break away but I also think that she is scared even though she doesn't want to be
Dev- I agree with you in saying that she is not ready to start putting her idea into play. This aslo goes back to youre shadow comment, becuase there is always something that is holding her back.
She needs to just let out her sexual repression and if an affair will do that than yes she should just have one.
Tina, it also seems that Edna sometimes chooses to go into the shadow does that mean she wants to still hide from her life?
Is there a hidden reason why Edna's husband is getting upset about minor things such as the food and leaving whenever she pleases?
lauraf--I think that Edna is kind of in the process of snapping, but sooner or later, she will totally realized that she cannont handle constantly being oppressed by her husband, and she will do something drastic. I think that this can happen to anybody, depending on how much pressure they feel is on their shoulders.
ms kakos, yes.I also am frustrated by the way she is not satisfied but then she can't find anything to do about it. Maybe its because she just can't confront mr. pontellier, but I think that would help because just being snippy and difficult is not going to help ANYTHING. and maybe with Robert they would understand each other enough and stuff but still... it's an AFFAIR.
Ms. Kakos,With every word I read I am looking for the ones to come for her to have an affair. I think I am expecting it because of the way the novel is going. But to me it seems like it SHOULD happen.
While I want Robert and Edna to be together and I think Edna does too, does Robert want to? Do you think Robert would be open to an affair? If so, would he want ot because he loves her or because he wants to prove that people should take him seriously?
i think an affair is wrong.i think she needs to break away from him, as in divorce, not cheat, its a form of power, but it means he still has enough control to where she does not tell him of it
Jessie-- This is kind of Edna's small way of challenging the system, so she is taking small steps to stand up to him and make him angry.
I agree with what Laura and Tina said about shadows, however the shadows remind me of the yellow wallpaper. It is almost like the shadows are what's holding her back from being the person that she wants to be. Where in the end, she is the only one that is holding her back and is using the shadow as an excuse.
Maddy--good question about Robert...he's done this with other women before, what makes Edna different?
i dont nessasirly like robert ther, i think hes using her for personal gain.
Josh-I think that Edna gets depressed sometimes because although she is discovering herself and is happy about her new freedom, she is still stuck in a marriage that she does not want to be in, she has children that she really doesn't seem to care about a great deal, and she has lost Robert, the only person who gave her real pleasure.
To Annika's question in the the inner circle when she asked if you would do anything to a repressive husband. I would definitely do that. I would not let my husband walk over me. I would take action. If you guys have seen Juno. In the movie the wife forces her husband to keep all of his "childish" things in the basement because they dont "contribute" to anything. So he gets a divorce. I would definitely do something like that to stand up for myself.
Jessie,I think that Edna's husband is getting upset because he knows that something is going on with Edna and he doesn't want to loose her, but also he doesn't want to fail being the husband and all because if Edna does leave him then she will seem more powerful than her husband
Does Edna love Robert or does she just love the freedom she gets with Robert?
I agree with carly that an affair is wrong. I think she should break off her marriage first before she plans on being with Robert. Although this might seem like the perfect solution, what about her children? I know she doesn't really care for them, but still...they are important
Tina and Dev-- the shadow almost seem to be a barrier between rebelling and repression. It is almost as she likes having something that she can hide behind, because I think she is still afraid to find her true self. Sometimes I don't think that she realizes how strong she really is inside.
Also, this chapter she does things to make her husband mad, it is very similar to what her husband did to her. He constantly made and effort to find flaws in her actions and then point them out. Now she realized what he has been doing the whole time and that she has the right to be herself. She discovered that she can do the something to him to be a childish jerk. What a happy marriage!!!
How do you think her kids are being affected by all of Edna's fighting? Do you think she would ever leave them to try to escape her husband?
Dev-I know. I'm confused about when she chooses to go into the shadow, or when Robert holds the umbrella for her, because shouldn't it be as though he's the one that is awakening her? Do you think Robert did awaken her, or that she was awakening herself when she befriended him?
In the scene where Edna smashes the vase why does Edna hide her rage and anger from the maid by disguising her intentions by saying the vase fell? I think it is because she is awakening her individuality but she is afraid to show it to the world so she hides it behind her role that everyone has categorized her into.
jessie--I think that her husband is realizing that he is slowly loosing power over her, and he is trying to do everything in his power to get her back.
Maddy,There are times earlier in the chapters when I thought that Robert did want to have an affair with her but then there were moments that I didnt think he wanted to.
I agree with Tana. But I think the thing he is most worried about is the fact that people are supposed to get divorced in the society they live in. The 'perfect family' is such an intense stereotype that no one wants to be excluded from.
Kaytlin- awesome connection!! I never really thought of the shadow as the yellow wall paper!! The shadows seem to bring a different aspect of her character to the reader similar to how the yellow wall paper brought out a different character it the women in "The Yellow Wallpaper"
Mrs. Kakos--I think that it will happen just because right now she is on her way to find something she can do to stand up to her oppressive husband. Eventually, I think that she will figure it out, and therefore an affair is bound to happen.
About my previous comment, I'm not supporting adultery! Just it would help the storyline of fictional characters advance and allow us to see if this change is more spiritual or just a rebellion.
Edna having an affair would symbolize her breaking all social standards. So does that make it okay for her to have an affair if it is the right thing for her, even if it may hurt others?
I think Edna likes the freedom that Robert makes her feel. He helps her relieve the stress she is always feeling and I think he doesn't make her feel restricted like other people in her life do.
Josh, I agree that she's still afraid of expressing her newfound self. It's interesting that when that happens she doesn't actually regret doing it, but she regrets that the maid or whoever found out about it.
If she had an affair would it be just to go against the oppression from her husband, or would it be because she actually loves Robert?
Endsley- I agree that he seemed to want an affair off and on throughout the book, but what were his motives for it?
Shauna--I think she'll have an affair also. I think that with robert gone that will be the only way for her to feel freedom from the oppression from her husband.
Maddy, I am not really sure how the kids are being affected by all of the fighting. She did not have much feelings or show much affection to the kids. So I dont know if they are really affected by it. Also the kids aren't even mentioned that often in the novel.
saram--I agree. I think thats why she began confiding in him all the time. I think he makes her feel whole as a person, and realize that she has been living her entire life under oppession.
Tina I think that Robert was kind of the catylist for her awakening. She kind of just needed a trigger to get herself thinking and to start the change in her because I don't think she had the strength to start the change by herself
Maddy and Laura-about Robert, and what he thinks-well this isn't really an answer but more questions. but still. I think Robert and Edna have some sort of connection that he never had with any of the other women he followed around all summer. I'm not sure whether it's really that Edna is so much more special, but that they get along the best. Remember the part where he says "why shouldn't I be taken seriously?"So I think he might be ok with an affair. Or maybe he was but then he realized it was wrong and that's why she went to Mexico.
Maddy- as horrible as this sounds, I think that she would. At this point in the story, she is so independent that she will do anything to be who she really is. By, doing this she wouldn't even think about how it would affect her kids, because she occupied with herself and her own problems.
Does anyone think that Edna breaking the vase symbolizes that she will totally lose control (like in the end of The Yellow Wallpaper) in the end of the book?
I noticed that during the first part of the book, Chopin referred to edna as Mrs. Pontellier. But, now she refers to her as Edna. Is their any significance in this?
Brynn-I don't think that it would be all right for Edna to have an affair, even if it would help her. It would still hurt other people in her life. I think that Edna has to draw the line. Right now she seems kind of selfish because she is disregarding everyone else and is only doing what she wants to do. It is good that Edna is finding herself and realizing that she deserves something more in life, but that is not an excuse for abandoning her family and others. If she had an affair, I think that it would be selfish and would be crossing the line.
Lara-- I also noticed this. I think that it shows that she is slowly breaking away from her bonds of marriage and is slowly becoming more free.
Laura-I think that it is significant that now she has her own identity in her own name-not her husbands. This is apart of her discovering herself as an individual separate from her husband
hannah s when she broke the glass I think it more symbolized how she decided she had to change her life and be different because she could not live in the shadow of her husband for anylonger. She also said that she would not loose control again but focus that energy into fighting who she wants to be.
Caitlin makes a valid point that pretty much any respectable mother today would risk their life for their chilren's. What do you think of Edna as a mother?
Brynn-yeah I noticed that the author portrays Edna as being very strong (she finds random times to insert how her teeth or her fingers or things are strong) but she does seem to be a bit afraid of moving on and finding herself. Thanks for that bit of wisdom! But then again wouldn't you be? With this totally different oppressive world around her...being different. It'd be scary.
the seprate name gives her indivduality, it disconnects her from her husband
Lara-- Chopin might change how she address Mrs. Pontellier to Edna as a sign of indepence from her husband. Now instead of being Mrs., she is whomever she wants to be.
Laura M I noticed that too, but its sort of subtle and its like as the reader is getting to know her so its like now we're on afirst name basis. I also think there is a deeper meaning like to the rest of the world she is Mrs. P, but she just wants to be Edna.
Lara-Good observation. I think that maybe Chopin did this to show that Edna is being her own person now. She no longer has the label of Mrs. Pontellier and is no longer the property of her husband.
Jess I think that Edna would give her life for her children but not her freedom to be herself. I think that Edna would rather die than sacrifice her freedom.
anyone noticed that when people go through very rough um...unhinging of there belife systems or change in mental state they revert back to a time when they were happy? i belive that is why she is acting like a child
I kinda feel out of place when I read this book because I'm not female and these emotions seem very confusing to me. Can any girl in this class please explain to me what an "awakening" feels like?
Do you think that Edna's "awakening" is revealing her true self that has been there all along, or is she being changed into a different person?
I would just like to point out how brilliant and observant Lara's comment was, and that I enjoyed reading everyone's response to that, and that I have nothing to add cause it's already awesome. thank you for your time.
Is anyone but me noticing all of Annika's hilarious possibly summaries of the book?"This whole book is just PMSing""This book is like life on crack"Just a side note
Christa--I think at first her awakening was bringing out the true Edna, but now it's just taking over and changing her.
Christa-- I'm not saying that an affair is the right thing to do, but isn't the piont of rebelling to cross the line and defy al;l others. The hard thing to figure out is what line she should cross, and right now this seems to the easiest thing to do.
Laine, yes I did hear that, and quite frankly thats amusing
Christa-I thought that perhaps it was awakening her true self. There is a part in some chapter or the other where Mr. Pontellier says "you aren't yourself anymore." and I think just that its Mr. Pontellier that says that made me think that he never knew Edna Pontellier.
I guess that an awakening is realizing that you are not being treated how you should be. The awakening is that time between when you realize that it has to change and when you change it. However, it doesn't always apply to feminism. It could be realizing that people take advantage of you and that you need a spine.
Josh- I think as tenneagers we can all relate to trying to find ourselves and not wanting to go through the motions. Edna has gone through life as she wsa told and she felt like she was trapped in her life with no way out. Her "awakening" is her finding herself and realizing that she isn't trapped and now she has a new reason for living and she has a goal; to escape.
Very interesting question Christa! I really don't know if she's revealing herself or becoming her. I think that it might be a combination of both. She's finding some of the strength that she had repressed since childhood. And with that confidence she is seeking new parts of herself.
hannah--I don't think that she is loosing control just yet. I think that when she broke the vase, she slowed down a little bit. Almost like she realized that she was going off of the deep end, and took three steps back.
Josh- I'm not sure what you mean, but for this particular book I think it is just the feeling of being independent.
I definitely agree with Lara. I think that as the book progreses she is changing and disscovers different parts of her self
Josh--Thanks for chiming in with the male perspective. To be honest, I have not experienced the kind of "awakening" that Edna has, and I'm not sure that anyone in here has. But if you think back to your Harlem Renaissance project, I think that everyone--male or female--undergoes periods of instability and can relate to the desire to escape, to rebel, and to feel genuinely wanted.
This book is supposed to a really feminist book, but if you look at it all very carefully it is a complete mockery of the idea.All of the nice, interesting, and honest characters are men. Also it's completely blowing female emotional instability of proportions. Throughout the whole book her emotions are always changing and confused. All of her emotions makes the lives of the people around her difficult and everything far more confusing. From what I have see so far it looks like things were a lot less confusion and things ran a lot smoother before she started gaining free thought and becoming very emotional.Disclaimer: not my thoughts, just what it looks like in the book.
I was a bit behind for these chapters, so here are my comments, now that I've read them.In response to hannah s' comment:I would have to say a 2.5, or a 2.25.She isn't quite there, but her awakening process is showing more and more.In response to ms. kakos' comment:I don't read trashy novels (at least I don't consider them that) but I too think it would be much more interesting to see Edna having an affair, even with someone other than Robert, just to see how that threw Mr. Pontillier's life for a further twist. I agree with Rachel, and what she said.In regard to the painting issue:I think she does not only as an expression, but just because its something that her husband disapproves of, which we can tell is having littler and littler effect on what she chooses to spend time on.I also thought that the breaking of the vase was cool. Smashing for smashing's sake. Its a great deal of fun to me.
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